Post Tension vs Rebar (with Brent Poss)
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Joe: [00:00:00] I think the biggest takeaway that I'm hearing is expectations. Make sure that your, your customer is very well aware of what could happen and what most likely will happen, especially with this. [00:01:00]
Awesome guys. Welcome back to our latest video. I'm here with my buddy, Brent PAs.
Welcome, Brent. Glad you're here.
Brent: Thank you sir. Thank you.
Joe: Super excited to have you on today. I'll just do a quick, quick intro for you and, you know, you fill in the gap on your own life, but, um, yeah, Brent's been super helpful to me as I've gotten started in, in our business. About four or five years ago, I started looking into this and found, uh, a, a Facebook group called the Pickleball.
A backyard pickleball, court owners Facebook group, uh, and just started getting all the knowledge that I'd never knew I needed on, on, on. What are, what are some typical problems with courts? Um, how should you think about courts? What are the differences in the different, um, you know, the different substrates?
Um, you know, how do we, how do you think about, you know, tool, [00:02:00] tool marks on courts? Like, how, why, why is there a rapport mark there? Why is there a squeegee mark there? Super helpful for me to kind of accelerate my understanding of, of the court world. And then on top of that, um, Brent, you've got, you're the president of at Cortex.
Um, you guys have got a amazing thing rocking in, in Texas, so, yeah. Any, any other quick details? I sorry to steal your thunder, but su super, super glad you're here. Would love for you to fill in any gaps on who you are in this world. Of course.
Brent: Y Yeah, no, I, I think that's great. I, I, that Backyard Pickleball group page has, has become one that people kind of across the internet in the pickleball world or even the court building world have kind of know me a little bit on, because I talk a lot. I prefer to talk, uh, online than in person actually.
Um, but it is true that I, I see a lot of misinformation and, and information that folks believe is the best route. And I just want folks to have the right tools to, to make the right decisions. And, you know, we don't, I don't really advertise much on that
group at all.
Joe: I've never seen anybody shepherd a Facebook group quite [00:03:00] as effectively as you. You are. I always, I always tell you, it's like your other full-time job. It's incredible.
Brent: Well, I do spend a lot of time and I. I appreciate that. I don't, I don't want people to feel like I'm forcing anything, which I Sure. I've come across that way. I know it does, but, but I'm so passionate, passionate and adamant on the things that I've learned that I just want to give that information.
And so it does come across as a little un maybe some, uh, you know, unbending on some of my beliefs,
Joe: Well, I think it's strength. I think, you know, when people, we always talk about how many variables there are in court building, and we, we, you know, we've done a lot of, you know, having this discussion around, there's a lot of us new guys that are coming into the, into this industry, and you really have to, there has to be, there has to be a voice that says, Hey, that's actually out of line, that's actually incorrect.
And you have, you know, for a grand total of $0, I think said, I'll be that guy. Um, so we're super grateful for you. I know all my guys, I'm like, one of the first things I say is join this [00:04:00] Facebook group and just watch, just listen to Brent and Weston and some of these other guys just, uh, course correct, uh, some of these customers and, and contractors.
So it's a, it's a big blessing for us. So, all right, today's topic. Is everyone's, what everybody just thinks about in their, in their spare time. Uh, what, what are the substrates of a pickleball or tennis court or basketball court? Um, so we, I wanna maybe break down these three options and I, I know we're gonna kind of go from, uh, maybe lower end to kind of Cadillac version of what you can, what the foundation of your court is.
So the, the three main, uh, options are to do asphalt, which you don't see a whole lot of down south and, and Texas. Um, and then you've got reinforced concrete, and then you've got post tension concrete, which we don't see a whole lot of here in the Midwest. So, uh, I, we, I know a lot of us, we've got guys in the Carolinas, um, you know, Minnesota.
Like we we're trying to figure out how to connect with the right post tension guys to make that [00:05:00] more of a reality here. But yeah, maybe you could just take a, a, I'll just turn you loose and maybe you could tell us a little bit about the difference on these and how, how we as contractors and how customers should think about, you know, these three different options.
Brent: Absolutely. And, and I wanna first start out by saying that I am fully aware that in different parts of the country things are done a little bit differently. You mentioned that you don't see a whole lot of asphalt in, in Texas, actually you used to A lot of it.
A lot of it. And the reason why we don't anymore is because we used to.
And the climates that we have and the weather and the heat and the flexible soils, and a lot of the reasons that we have that are a little bit unique to this large area of Texas are the reasons why asphalt is not the best choice. Now, it still can be done and it still is done on occasion. Um, but you have to really, really, really prepare properly.
Your subgrade below the asphalt is extremely important. That's one of the reasons [00:06:00] why post tension or even just rebar concrete has become so common in Texas is because there's less of that need. You still need to prepare. You still need some of that, but post tension, and we'll get into that can, can cure a lot of those issues and ills without having to go too much.
Because here's the thing, if you're doing a backyard court and you know that a soils report is gonna tell you, you've gotta excavate four feet of native soil, bring in four feet of eight inch lifts of compacted limestone, then you put your asphalt down, that's gonna be probably good. You're just going to boost up your cost to the point of you could have post-tension concrete
Joe: Yeah. Might as well go all the way in.
Brent: Exactly. Exactly. So, and, and, and also I will say that, you know, the, the number one thing as you guys do in courts will know is that you want to mitigate, cracking. Cracking is the number one enemy that we all face in this court building business cracks become very, very difficult to control, to make better, to hide, to fix, repair, all that stuff.
So if we can limit [00:07:00] that need, yeah. We're limiting our, our maintenance as we go forward. In, in business, the post tension courts that we do, they're very long lasting and the cracks stay very hairline and hairline cracks or, you know, maybe slightly seen and a little unsightly slightly, but they're not. A problem when it comes to playability, even functionality, you know, and even maintenance.
And so we're trying to do the best that we can for the longest term, um, other parts of the country. Asphalt is great and it can be great, especially if that subgrade is done well and the right materials are used. Um, and it's true that a lot of people aren't looking for a 50 year lasting court. They're looking for a 10 year one and they're gonna move and I get that.
But we're under the mindset of build it the best that you can. Especially considering we don't, our prices when it comes to like post concrete are not cons. People think, oh, I've gotten quotes. It's 50% more not even close in our area because it is very available and you know, we kind of do everything in house for the most part when it comes to that stuff.
Um, but you know, I don't know how much of detail you want me to get [00:08:00] into the post tension or the
Joe: Yeah. Well, I, I would say, yeah, I, I. Yeah, I, I know on the asphalt we've got a whole nother video on asphalt, so maybe we could, maybe we could really drill into the, the difference between these two types of concrete. So you've got, like you said, rebar, reinforced rebar, concrete, um, maybe you talk about fibers mesh, like you know what to stay away from.
Um, and then, yeah. And then what does, what, how, what a lot of guys have not heard about post tension concrete before.
Um, And just kinda
what is, what the heck is that? Yeah,
Brent: Okay. No, absolutely. So, you know, reinforced rebar concrete, we've all seen that you, you form your slab up, you put your, your fill, you put your beams, if you've got perimeter beams, whatnot, and then you put steel for reinforcement at whatever intervals that you, for your area and what it calls for.
Strong slab, you're gonna get a strong slab with rebar, it's gonna hold it together. That's all really good. The problem is, especially in climates like ours in Texas, where the extremes of temperatures are dramatic. I mean, we can have 50 [00:09:00] degree swings in a single day e very easily. And so. And not just that, the extremes of the high and sometimes the, the lows.
Nothing like you guys get in the north, but there are some times where it gets pretty cold and, but we get really high and really hot for long periods of time. So the shrinkage cracks is the issue. You, you're not gonna be able to do anything about shrinkage cracks when you've got rebar, it's gonna hold it together, but those shrinkage cracks are gonna come.
So then it means that you really do need sock cuts or some kind of joints, or you have the alternative of just letting it spider crack. And that's another issue is that. In the court building world, kinda the old school world. We've never, you've never seen a tennis court or not properly built one that has saw cuts because you, we all know that it's very challenging to cover hide, maintain those if you have to do 'em, netline and outside of play is, is the way you do it.
But you know, we're under the, um, the feeling that if you have to do rebar for whatever reason, post tension's not available or possible or whatever, we [00:10:00] prefer to have some spider hairline cracking that doesn't affect play and you can hardly see, as opposed to the thick directed saw cuts that you have to fill, have to surface and have to maintain, that can eventually become a, a problem.
Joe: Yeah, it could be a ball balance issue. It could be a, it's certainly unsightly, you almost always get a hairline crack along the saw cuts. Um, and then, yeah, I mean, potentially a tripping hazard even so,
Brent: it can, it depends on how big you do them and, and you know, that's why netline and outside of play is best if you can, but sometimes
Joe: so would you, you would suggest for a rebar enforced. Slab to put to, to, you know, I'll show up to a 30 by 60 pad, you know, to, and, and these, the contractor just sliced, you know, sliced it 10 feet every way, and I've got a million of these things You would suggest just putting one along the line, along the net line and, and then leave it at that, or would you put two outside the sidelines, or how would you think about
Brent: so here's the truth is that when we have to do them, we really prefer the one at the net [00:11:00] line, and then we don't want any other ones because we don't want to deal with all that maintenance. And some of those issues. We know for a fact that it's pretty unlikely that it's not going to crack. I mean, it is going to have some cracking.
They're probably gonna stay hairline if we did our base and our, our subgrade and our rebar properly, and we have a good mix and a good mix design, and we did it at the right time and all that. Um, poured it with the right amount of slump and all that. I think we are pretty confident that it's gonna be solid.
I know we are, but we know it's gonna have some hair lines. We surface that we can repair those to some degree in surfacing, but they're gonna show up. They're gonna be there and they're gonna be something that people have to know So why, why install cracks when you don't have to? Right. Like if,
My thing is, yeah, I mean, I know that if you do 'em, and I've had this debate or whatever you call it, with homeowners and with people online and other contractors, oh, you've got to saw cut. You have to do every interval. It is true that it's better for the concrete. I I will never disagree with that. If you have a driveway, you have a patio.
Absolutely. But you're coating it with a sports coating, and if [00:12:00] you're coating it with a sports coating and you're playing sports on it, you wanna minimize those imperfections or those things that are gonna make it potentially of a problem. So, you know, we prefer to have spider cracks that are so small that really don't affect anything than to have these thick stock cuts that have to be filled and maintained and dealt with.
That's why post tension is something that we really, really like. Because you don't saw cut post tension. Post tension has steel cables at larger intervals intervals than the the rebar. They stick outta the concrete. It's called post tension because after a little bit of curing time, you come back and you stress the cables, you're compressing the cables.
And compressing the concrete so that cracking that is gonna has happened and it's gonna happen. It's all squeezed together under all this tension, post tension. What people a lot of times don't realize is that it's actually very dangerous to drill into a post tension slab, like with drill holes for net post or fence or whatever, because it's very dangerous.
It's like kind of the idea of you break a guitar string and a guitar [00:13:00] string boom goes up. That's what those cables do, but they've got concrete and they will just, it'll just fly up. And so you gotta be really careful. But the benefit is that you don't have the, the near the amount of cracking and the cracks that you do have are really held and sucked up together and stay pretty small.
So they're not a long term issue. And that's the goal of post tension.
Joe: That's amazing. Yeah. That's such a good summary. Yeah. Thanks so much for that. That that's like a lot. Like I said, a lot of guys are like post tension, like is that some kind of additive that you put in the concrete, but yeah. Okay. So the tension itself is actually holding, so you're saying that the slab actually does, it's gonna crack in spots, but it's It's actually held together.
Brent: That's the thing that I wanna make clear and that it's, people go, oh, you do post tension? No, that's the crack free concrete. Absolutely not concrete is going to crack. If it doesn't, then everything was perfect. The conditions were perfect, everything was perfect. So the mitigation, the controlling of the cracking is why post tension is so good to do is that when you get those, you can squeeze it together.
And then where are they gonna go? They're [00:14:00] held up with so much together, with so much pressure that there's just not much movement it could then do. And so there are some design things in, in building techniques that you use to kind of keep that to a minimum. For example, if you put your, this is just an example.
If you put your light piers on a court really close to and connected to your post tension deep into the earth, we're gonna have cracking at those locations because there's gonna be some force and it's gonna wanna, something's going to win. What's gonna win is that deep light anchor and concrete. That's a lot of times in in rock around here that is not gonna move.
It's the rest of it's gonna crack. So if you could have some separation in those areas, do some other things and you know. There are some tricks to the trade that you learn that are just better, but you can never expect completely crack free. But you know, you always want them to be outside of play and not affect the inner part, and that's good. Okay. Okay. So, all right, I've got a, I've got a case study for you and I want, I want your opinion on this. So you guys show up to a court and tell me if you would even take this job. You show up to a court and it's rebar and they have [00:15:00] put saw cuts in it, and they're like. Brent surface this thing and make it look great.
Joe: What do you do to those saw cuts?
Brent: Yeah, so obviously there's gonna be a lot of those situations. They happen all the time and you just have to be as upfront and honest with them as you can. We'll take the manufacturer's crack filler, we'll clean up those cracks, we'll fill them, we'll do the ar, we'll do everything we can to hide those.
They're gonna look really good right off the bat. That's the thing. It's gonna look great. In fact, in some cases you may faintly see it. The issue is that's not gonna stay that way. That expansion joint that saw cut, which is meant to direct the movement, is going to move. And the, the thought of any crack filler or paint holding together concrete is, is, is silly.
It's not going to. So we just let people know that, expect that it's gonna come back and you're gonna have to maintain, maintain them over
Joe: So expectations are the first thing. So you're saying you would, you would actually fill 'em with a patch, like a patch mix or a sport patch you, so some guys would say, just put [00:16:00] acrylic paint in there, maybe fill 'em in, you know, do a shadow coat of extra, like maybe sandier mix of AR or something. How do you feel about that approach?
Brent: I think that it's going to, you're gonna have less life if you do that because again, that's just putting more material in there. It is less strength and, and you know, those, those crack the manufacturers crack filler compounds are meant for having some flexibility that have some movement. So it's gonna last longer that way.
Um, use the VS squeegee and, and get 'em the best that you can, but just don't tell people that it's gonna stay that way. You gotta be upfront if you, if they see it on day one and it looks amazing. Look, all of our, all of our contracts and everything we say is, we talk about cracking some cracks are gonna reappear some as early as overnight, because here in Texas that is absolutely true.
In the mornings. Yeah. to think it was, Hey, you know, in the next six months it might show up. It's like, no. Like, it might show up tomorrow.
Tomorrow, it depends on the time of day. We'll have people go, Hey, we had a crack over here. And I say, can you just take a picture? [00:17:00] And they go, I went back in the afternoon and I, I can't even see
Joe: Yeah. Yeah. We went, we had aqua at the end of the year last year in October. So the, the temperatures were really fluctuating and we had filled, we had filled a, a decent sized crack, and we came and the customer was like, Hey, this cracked again. And then they, yeah. Same exact thing. Later when it warmed up, it just went, stuck back together.
Brent: It moves a lot with movement, with, with the ground movement, and, and again, it's setting expectations and some people they get that. They go, I know other people expect it. And that's another thing with, with a surfacing job or a resurfacing job, their expectation is that you've fixed all the subsurface imperfections.
That's, it's just a bandaid. There's not, there's only so much you can do,
Joe: No doubt. Do you have a second to talk, uh, like overlays? I know I'm throwing this one at you, uh, unscripted, but like overlay systems, I know, like there's, there's these, um, you know, mat systems, like a free floating mat system versus a bonded mat system. How are you, are you open to talking about some of what you guys have tried and, you know, even, [00:18:00] even some, like, uh, there's right way or fault line, some of these, some of these crack repair systems.
How, how have you seen those, uh, over time? How, how long are these things lasting for you guys? What are you guys into these days?
Brent: Well, we know that from our experience that the, the crack systems, you know, right way being, in our opinion, the best of, of the group, they work pretty well on asphalt. Um, for those that do asphalt, they can be absolutely a, a good place to, to, to, to have them in the market. Um, on concrete, because of the movement of the concrete, it doesn't seem to do as well because you've got, they're flexible, but they're not as flexible as they need to be when it comes to concrete movement.
So, so we do some of that. Um, again, we tend to, to have it be an, an extra, obviously an add-on that folks can say, okay, here's what your expectations are. Sometimes they wanna just have a, a temporary fix and have it resurfaced for just a couple years and go with that. You know, one thing as a, as a former tennis player and, and even a pickleball player, I'm, I'm really.
Aware of aesthetics versus functionality and [00:19:00] just, just because you're hiding a crack and just because it's not visible and being seen doesn't mean that it's gonna completely be a good solid surface. And we all know tennis, it's a minor thing because tennis balls have some rebound to them no matter what they're bouncing on.
But pickle balls are very unforgiving when it comes to hard surfaces and having any kind of voids underneath. And so we always wanna set expectations about do you, would you rather see a small crack and it plays pretty well or not see it at all? And potentially have some issues, especially with the extremes of temperatures that we have here.
So, you know, we, we are, we cautiously use them. They can absolutely be beneficial in certain situations. Um, but it's very important how they're applied. Applied and when they're applied. And, and you gotta, you gotta do it the right way. So.
Joe: so good. Well, this has been great. I, I think having this breakdown for guys to understand, right, you've got asphalt, you've got rebar in your concrete that if you go that route, then you've got saw cuts to consider, you know, where to put 'em, how many to, uh, put in there. Uh, and then yeah. How, [00:20:00] if at all, do you, like what do you put in those things to, to make 'em work?
And then, so I think the biggest takeaway that I'm hearing is expectations. Make sure that your, your customer is very well aware of what could happen and what most likely will happen, especially with this. Yeah,
Brent: And especially in areas where something like post tension is, is a, is a significantly more expensive option. You, you, I don't mean to imply to the folks on the page for example, that if they don't do post tension, their court's not gonna be any good. That's, that's not at all what I'm saying.
What I'm saying is that when that option's available, and if it is within the budgets, consider it because we all wanna have something that lasts longer, whether it's for our own ourself or our family or for the next person. Anything you can do to mitigate
Joe: Yeah. It's a good, good, better, best. Yeah.
Brent: is for sure.
Joe: no doubt. Awesome. Brent, this has been super helpful. Thank you so much for taking some time for sure. You're more than for, for all that you're doing for, for us contractors and especially the customers that we're trying to serve, so, awesome. You got it. Appreciate it, man. [00:21:00] Thank you.
